Hacker News

124 Comments:
calibas said 8 days ago:

I find it odd that people make such a big deal about the failed "mind control" programs, while ignoring the ones that were disturbingly successful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Manuel_Rodr%C3%ADgue...

Synaesthesia said 8 days ago:

They were “mind control” but also torture and interrogation techniques. Some very disturbing and immoral experiments like dosing people unknowingly, torturing people with them, playing loops repeatedly etc.

keiru said 8 days ago:

secret mind control programs. The human brain, being a computer, is expected to be alterable. But the extent of secrecy, shadiness and memory-holing of secret government programs never ceases to amaze.

dr_dshiv said 8 days ago:

Yes! Great reference. I mean, a hell of a lot of fundamental research is beyond ethics. Maybe the CIA has an island somewhere?

jedmeyers said 8 days ago:

> Maybe the CIA has an island somewhere?

Where they invite prominent figures and then record them doing nefarious things in order to ‘mind’ control them later? Nah, this is conspiracy theories territory.

shredprez said 8 days ago:

Agreed. That's what Epstein's private jet was for.

yters said 8 days ago:

Interesting, wonder if we could modulate the electric grid and influence the emotions of a nation?

rolph said 8 days ago:

yes and more. There are a large number of routers that are designed to revert to a backup copy of firmware and configuration.

  An attack would involve making electrical service cycle its voltage 3 times in succession,
 thus causing reversion to a default mode. The majority of routers would be in Out of the Box State, and highly pwnable.
It is very conveinient that 3phase power can provide 3 surges of ~60vac if the correct attack is used on a generation station, or inter-tie station.

if you are of the 3rd party firmware persuasion, you should flash your router configure, and then flash again, so your backup will be a secure firmware with a secure configuration.

Among the things router manufacturers should do is change this aforementioned behaviour to something like 5 failed reboot attempts in succession, rather than 3 reboot attempts.

clipboardisfull said 8 days ago:

Where could I read more on that firmware reversion hack? I searched what was quoted, but it only ties back to your post.

the_pwner224 said 4 days ago:

rolph's reply to this seems a bit... off the rails.

This part makes me think it's all a big conspiracy theory:

> such a router will have two instances of flashed firmware and you can toggle between the instances by flicking the power switch [3times] rapidly so you produce 3 boot failures. this is true in the case of linksys routers and many others but not all, so read often, implement successfully the first time.

I recently purchased a high-end Linksys router and flashed OpenWRT on it so I know exactly what he's talking about. Like modern smartphones, they have two firmware partitions, A and B. When you are booted into the A partition and download an update, it is applied to the B partition. On the next boot the device uses the B partition and then eventually applies the same update to the A partition. This means that updates can be applied without having to restart the device and wait a long time for the flash, and it also means that the device can revert to the A partition if there was an error updating the B partition. That's why it was added a few years ago to Android.

This is explicitly advertised as in the marketing for newer high-end routers (and other things, like computer motherboards).

In OpenWRT you actually have to manually flash both partitions - update the router, reboot into the other partition, and then update again to apply it to the first partition. Which seems to be what rolph is talking about when he mentions flashing updates twice to be a deterrent to this exploit. What doesn't make sense is that rolph implied that the fix of flashing twice applied to all devices.

- On devices with dual firmwares, the stock firmware flashes updates twice to complete the update process - On devices with one firmware but a secret evil firmware, the evil firmware will not be affected by updates, so flashing a new firmware twice will not fix the exploit (which is the opposite of what rolph said)

I would assume high-end older routers do contain a backup stock firmware that can be loaded after multiple failed boots, just like Windows will boot to recovery mode if it fails to boot a few times.

rolph hasn't provided any solid evidence to back his conspiracy theory. That doesn't mean it isn't... as you can see in the comments here, there's tons of stuff we don't know about. Also see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17311005 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5981399

So it might actually be an evil CIA/NSA plot. Or it might not.

rolph said 8 days ago:

The sort of evil hack that can occur, was not possible until it became possible for the control systems of industrial settings to be hacked, by foriegn or domestic elements. I live in a place that has very inconsistent power and i use a UPS to feed my router, that is also a way to mitigate a hack of this sort. Keep in mind that power generation has to be hacked and manipulated, and the major hack would be a followup or an opportunist piggybacking on the first attack, sniffing the DSL environment for open router ports, and exploiting.

have a look here Re firmware and model compatabilities:

https://openwrt.org/toh/start

this is a table of compatible devices and firmware. The site itself is about open WRT and hosts "apps" to run on your router as network services. It is possible to turn your router into something other than a router [including a paper wieght if your not careful] so read up on what you have, what you want to do, and what you need to do that.

keep in mind im trying to be as general as possible, so you need to do a bit of reading about your router, and what options you have.

make sure you have a backup router, and or all your ducks in a row, as you will not have a router if something goes wrong. The revert feature is usefull if you have that sort of router, the feature itsself is not a bad[evil] thing, the problem is that sucessive power cycling can revert your router to factory configuration and leave your system quite vulnerable to followup attack. this is why you make sure you know what you are doing, flash your router properly, configure it to be secure but open to you , then flash it again with the same firmware and configure it. if it all works properly, you will have a router that reverts to a secure firmware and configuration, instead of factory firmware.

such a router will have two instances of flashed firmware and you can toggle between the instances by flicking the power switch [3times] rapidly so you produce 3 boot failures. this is true in the case of linksys routers and many others but not all, so read often, implement successfully the first time.

The sort of evil hack that can occur, was not possible until it became possible for the control systems of industrial settings to be hacked, by foriegn or domestic elements. I live in a place that has very inconsistent power and i use a UPS to feed my router, that is also a way to mitigate a hack of this sort. Keep in mind that power generation has to be hacked and manipulated, and the major hack would be a followup or an opportunist piggybacking on the first attack, sniffing the DSL environment for open router ports.

so how does this fit into the original topic?

When you interrupt power and cause blackouts you create an opportunity for F.U.D. secondarily messing around with everyones router at gross scale furthers the FUD and opens the door for MITM and consequent manipulation of psychological/ emotional state.

2mc84j395hn663h said 8 days ago:

Some doctors (many disagree) speculate that microwave weapons are the "prime suspect" in Cuba's [1] and China's [2] embassy attacks in the recent years.

What struck me in the article was Frey's: “Based on what I know, it will remain a mystery.”

I am skeptic on the fact that it was specifically microwaves (but also on the hypothesis it was crickets [3]), but who knows?

From what we know whole-nation influence trough electrical grid seems far-fetched, but if trough EM radiation you could trigger action potentials in the auditory system, maybe it would be possible to do that to the limbic system as well.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/01/science/sonic-attack-cuba... [2] https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/06/more-americans-in-ch... [3] https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/01/canada-halves-diplom...

qwerty456127 said 8 days ago:

This is weird. I can hardly imagine how can LSD be used to control somebody rather than to free him. Every single time I've taken LSD (or other psychedelics) it felt great. The first time I have taken it I've also experienced sense of beauty and love so deep and extatic I could not previously imagine, another sense I've experienced deeply was how absurd violence, as well as pride and hatred are. It also helped me to realize non-duality and mindfulness so now I fear neither death nor imprisionment, let alone ridiculous verbal manipulations. Nevertheless I haven't became a hippie, I still maintain my hygiene and do my job.

It is also a well-known fact LSD doesn't work the next day you take it and you have to rest for about a weak before you can repeat the trip (but, to be honest, I am to mention I haven't checked this myself).

dadarepublic said 8 days ago:

>Every single time I've taken LSD (or other psychedelics) it felt great.

I'm glad you've had a good experiences with LSD every time you've taken it. But even a simple look into the history and culture of LSD and you would know that very "bad" trips are possible. I'm shocked that you haven't done more research into LSD as a whole.

>It is also a well-known fact LSD doesn't work the next day you take it and you have to rest for about a weak before you can repeat the trip (but, to be honest, I am to mention I haven't checked this myself).

Your assertion of "a well-known fact" is in fact false. I'm glad you put the last part in parentheses.

It sounds like you are prime for some reading on the history of LSD & psychedelics, understanding the effects long & short term, understanding how the drug(s) works, and how there were attempts to weaponize it (of course there were).

Apologies if the tone of this comment is a bit down on you, it's not meant to be, I just _really_ hope you educate yourself before speaking again on this subject.

qwerty456127 said 8 days ago:

> I'm glad you've had a good experiences with LSD every time you've taken it. But even a simple look into the history and culture of LSD and you would know that very "bad" trips are possible. I'm shocked that you haven't done more research into LSD as a whole.

So you are essentially shocked with your own assumption. I've never mentioned I don't know about the "bad trips" theory (although I can only speculate about how does it feel and why can it happen as long as we are talking about LSD, I have only met one person who had a bad trip experience and it was with n,n-DMT).

I also know enough about how does it work on the brain chemistry level.

As for the military usage and related history - I'm not interested enough to invest more time than it takes to write a comment expressing my surprise and my experience so others could share the essential parts in response if they feel like they want to.

scottlocklin said 8 days ago:

One of the horrific apeshit things done in CIA mind control research involved dosing sensory deprived people with LSD, thorazine/sedatives, curare and electroconvulsive therapy for ... weeks, and subsuming them in brainwashing "suggestions"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_experiments

But hey, it happened in Canada, so no harm no foul right? There really should be Nuremberg trials for the sins of the spooks. There won't be though; they run the show. The last time a spook employee got in trouble it was for whistleblowing.

vageli said 8 days ago:

> But hey, it happened in Canada, so no harm no foul right? There really should be Nuremberg trials for the sins of the spooks. There won't be though; they run the show. The last time a spook employee got in trouble it was for whistleblowing.

This seems to be true and that's frightening.

platoscubicle said 8 days ago:

With a high enough dose of LSD, your current models of the world break down. Maybe the CIA was trying to imprint new reality tunnels for people during this vulnerable point in the trip.

o-__-o said 8 days ago:

Memories are fleeting depending on a host of chemical balances, life changes, and other external factors. You can impress new thoughts on certain people without much effort. Gaslighting is a great example of imprinting new realities. On a greater scale, Your mind differentiates reality from non-reality with dreams. When your trip becomes indistinguishable from dreams, your mind is left pulling apart the pieces and making sense of everything. Traumatic events and major life changes can also leave your mind in a similar state.

I’ve been doing experiments with my wife to “inject” a different time in her head when I come to bed. My results are mixed during the moment, but she claims to everyone I come to bed at the time I’ve injected. I’m sure in a more controlled environment with patients one could “inject” anything that seems plausible to the naked eye

heavenlyblue said 8 days ago:

>> I’ve been doing experiments with my wife to “inject” a different time in her head when I come to bed.

Or maybe, she's just your wife so she doesn't want to argue with you on such an irrelevant matter.

nl said 7 days ago:

Gaslighting is a great example of imprinting new realities

I’ve been doing experiments with my wife to “inject” a different time in her head when I come to bed.

You realize you are gaslighting your wife, and that isn't ok, right?

o-__-o said 7 days ago:

Maybe but saying I came to bed at 4am instead of 1am is hardly a lie. It’s on the same plane as saying you don’t look fat.

Gene5ive said 8 days ago:

If you're lying to your wife as an experiment then you should probably go to couples counseling.

qwerty456127 said 8 days ago:

Doesn't the eye loose the habit of beinh naked and considering whatever it encounters plausible given some experience with psychedelics and meditation? A major point of spiritual training is to stop taking perception and thoughts serious.

lethologica said 8 days ago:

This sounds a lot like gas lighting and isn’t healthy.

o-__-o said 7 days ago:

Meh you could inquire some more or just assume I’m an evil person who does nothing but lie

Also don’t take sleeping pills

said 7 days ago:
[deleted]
cj said 8 days ago:

> LSD be used to control somebody rather than to free him.

I think this is accurate. Except freeing someone also removes / alters the person's usual defense mechanisms and their internal understanding of what's acceptable to do and say.

What LSD definitely does is makes the person vulnerable to external influence in ways they typically wouldn't be without the drug. For example, you could very plausibly convince someone to run naked down the street in a big city on LSD (the person taking LSD loses the voice in their head saying "NO! DON'T DO THAT!"), while it would be near impossible to convince someone of doing that while not on LSD. From that perspective, it can be thought of a "mind control" mechanism just not in the literal sense.

qwerty456127 said 8 days ago:

When I took LSD for the first time I was surprised how sober my consciousness became (despite how intense my perception was rendered), how easy it was to maintain adequateness. I still believe I actually could communicate without letting people notice I'm high (perhaps they could think I' slightly drunk or something). And this sobriety has never left me since then. Now I am much more adequate than I used to be even when I get heavily drunk.

I had no desire to do weird things under LSD. I in fact realized there is absolutely nothing wrong in being naked and I have no actual shyness since then yet I never forgot the simple fact running around naked (which I didn't even wanted) is going to make normal people uncomfortable (which I certainly don't want) and possibly cause other kinds of undesired consequences like being put in a jail, getting pneumonia or destroying my career (which would make my family suffer).

ElFitz said 8 days ago:

If you ask some people, bad trips can go horribly wrong.

Also, being in that state, and seeing the world in such a distorted way, without even knowing you're in an altered must be horrifying.

One wouldn't have any reason to believe it isn't "real" or that it will ever end.

qwerty456127 said 8 days ago:

> One wouldn't have any reason to believe it isn't "real" or that it will ever end.

Why? Isn't it natural to question your perception when you see something unusual in such a degree?

sincerely said 8 days ago:

The higher the dose the more you lose the ability to convince yourself “This isn’t real” or even care.

ElFitz said 7 days ago:

It would. Unless your very thought patterns are completely disrupted by a highly potent psychedelic you've been unknowingly dosed with.

Even then, what seems more reasonable? "I'm trapped, asleep, in a seemingly never ending nightmare" or "I, a random layman with nothing remarkable whatsoever, have been unknowingly dosed with some unknown substance by the CIA" ?

sincerely said 8 days ago:

Afaik the MKULTRA experiments included a sizeable amount of what we would call heroic doses and most of the time the subjects were not in an ideal trip setting.

ncmncm said 7 days ago:

Note we only have their reports that MKULTRA ended.

konfusinomicon said 8 days ago:

I can verify that LSD does in fact work the next day, and the next, and the next. after 4 days, not so sure.

3131s said 8 days ago:

There is some cross tolerance between all tryptamines and phenethylamines, but I have still managed to take them near daily for months on end without having to increase the dose by an absurd amount.

johnmaguire2013 said 8 days ago:

As I recall, LSD is neither strictly a tryptamine nor a phenethylamine, but rather an ergotamine with a structure resembling both tryptamines and phenethylamines.

pawelmurias said 8 days ago:

"I've experienced deeply was how absurd violence, as well as pride and hatred are" - something super useful for the CIA if it can be reliably reproduced

senorjazz said 8 days ago:

> It is also a well-known fact LSD doesn't work the next day

At the same dose. If you double the dose each day it works just fine

Mindwipe said 8 days ago:

> I can hardly imagine how can LSD be used to control somebody rather than to free him.

A lot of the early CIA experiments on LSD were about trying to come up with a truth serum for use on captured agents, so they went down some weird rabbit holes to that intent.

RaceWon said 8 days ago:

> I can hardly imagine how can LSD be used to control somebody rather than to free him

But you're a rank amateur. The CIA used University and Medical Schools, plus some believe (and I am one of those "some') they also used Nazi research. Shit an argument can be made that they "know" exactly the psychological profile of people that are prone to mind control, and contrary to popular belief people can be hypnotized into doing things they normally would not.

The US Army [1] researched BZ (which makes LSD look like licorice you give to kids) for TWENTY Years.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-Quinuclidinyl_benzilate

ncmncm said 7 days ago:

Yet they claim to have failed.

People who have been tortured by (still-unindicted) US personnel have not reported being drugged.

2_listerine_pls said 8 days ago:

Scopolamine is more effective.

2mc84j395hn663h said 8 days ago:

Only tangentially related since the following is not about "mind control" but about "psychological control". Seems like in 2007 CIA was still interested in that.

This is an extract from the section "Special Handling" in [1]:

#+BEGIN_QUOTE A well-trained espionage recruiter will search for vulnerable targets. Professional intelligence officers are trained to "spot" outward signs of trouble in a person's history or behavior -- such as tumultuous relationships or frequent job changes -- and to evaluate the deeper, more enduring psychological dysfunctions that may be at the root of the problems. These professional recruiters are trained do deploy sophisticated psychological control techniques matched to the vulnerabilities they have detected in order to manipulate, apply pressure, or induce a person to commit espionage.

Some intelligence services do not limit themselves to exploiting pre-existing problems, but may actively foster crises to enhance the target's susceptibility to recruitment. Common forms of such aggressive pursuit and manipulation of targets include emotional or sexual entrapment and financial manipulation through increasing the target's level of debt. A psychologically vulnerable target's grandiosity, sense of being above the rules, or vengeful impulses can all be manipulated in the service of recruitment. #+END_QUOTE

What I found interesting was that the same terminology ("psychological control", "handler") was used also by stratfor's Friedman in the stratfor leaks [2].

[1] https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/DOC_0001407031....

[2] https://search.wikileaks.org/gifiles/?viewemailid=202526&fbc...

kd3 said 8 days ago:

Interesting that the CIA imported LSD. I thought they were just Cocaine Importing Agency. I guess we can expect anything from Criminals In Action.

RaceWon said 8 days ago:

> I thought they were just Cocaine Importing Agency.

No not at all--[1] Viet Nam was all about protecting the Opium Poppy... kinda like "we" do in Afghanistan now.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_CIA_drug_traffi...

jonplackett said 8 days ago:

Admittedly unrelated but... I love that this link has a “decline tracking cookies and just give me plain text version of the site”

saagarjha said 8 days ago:

It doesn't look like this is an option for American readers, unfortunately :(

zyxzevn said 8 days ago:

Interview with Stephen Kinzer (On Ripple Effect Podcast)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2-Z77BhI1c

senorjazz said 8 days ago:

Never understood they experimented with LSD, I would have though to unpredictable, something like scopolamine would have had better effects. It is often used in South America to control their victims as if all there free will is gone. It is highly effective in small doses (not LSD small but still quite small), the victim is often taking to the ATM and told to take out the money which they do willingly.

Never tried it myself, but the wife had it used on her when a student, luckily she had only about $15 in her bank account at the time, but says it is like being in a dazed / dream like state where you just go through the motions

eof said 8 days ago:

Well LSD was very new at the time. Additionally people’s perceptions are drastically changed while on LSD, and those perceptions are highly variable based on set and setting of the trip.

Seems a very good candidate to me to get people to believe something they wouldn’t have otherwise.

bowcoy said 8 days ago:

They experimented with a wide array of drugs, including LSD, fish poison, and Scopolamine. At first, the CIA was predominantly concerned with (aerosol) weaponization and investigating if dosing an unwitting agent, diplomat, or soldier with LSD could be used to extract secrets. Later they became interested in the counter culture of the 60s (and making sure the Russians were not turning a new generation against its own society/military).

https://fightingmonarch.files.wordpress.com/2018/07/human-dr...

> Among the drugs illegally used by CIA against American citizens are (a) hypnotic sedatives such as amobarbital, aprobarbital, butabarbital sodium, chloral hydrate, methotrimeprazine hydrochloride, midazolam hydrochloride, paraldehyde, pentobarbital, pentobarbital sodium, quazepam, secobarbital sodium, sodium pentobarbital, temazepam, triazolam, and zolpidem tartrate, (b) hypnotics like demerol, desoxyn (combined with sodium pentothal), methyprylon, and pentothal acid, and (c) memory blockers such as acetylcholine, BZ, and scopolamine.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4858612A/en

> A method and apparatus for simulation of hearing in mammals by introduction of a plurality of microwaves into the region of the auditory cortex is shown and described. A microphone is used to transform sound signals into electrical signals which are in turn analyzed and processed to provide controls for generating a plurality of microwave signals at different frequencies. The multifrequency microwaves are then applied to the brain in the region of the auditory cortex. By this method sounds are perceived by the mammal which are representative of the original sound received by the microphone.

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intellig...

> Only a handful of cases in which scopolamine was used for police interrogation came to public notice, though there is evidence suggesting that some police forces may have used it extensively. 2, 16 One police writer claims that the threat of scopolamine interrogation has been effective in extracting confessions from criminal suspects, who are told they will first be rendered unconscious by chloral hydrate placed covertly in their coffee or drinking water.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_serum

> The United States Office of Strategic Services (OSS) experimented with the use of mescaline, scopolamine, and marijuana as possible truth drugs during World War II. They concluded that the effects were not much different from those of alcohol: subjects became more talkative but that did not mean they were more truthful. Like hypnosis, there were also issues of suggestibility and interviewer influence. Cases involving scopolamine resulted in a mixture of testimonies both for and against those suspected, at times directly contradicting each other.

webninja said 6 days ago:

Did any of them actually work?

bowcoy said 5 days ago:

I don't know, but those in the know are still (allegedly) using them.

> PRISONERS INSIDE THE U.S. military's detention center at Guantanamo Bay were forcibly given "mind altering drugs," including being injected with a powerful anti-psychotic sedative used in psychiatric hospitals. Prisoners were often not told what medications they received, and were tricked into believing routine flu shots were truth serums. It's a serious violation of medical ethics, made worse by the fact that the military continued to interrogate prisoners while they were doped on psychoactive chemicals.

> BZ was invented by the Swiss pharmaceutical company Hoffman-LaRoche in 1951.[5] The company was investigating anti-spasmodic agents, similar to tropine, for treating gastrointestinal ailments when the chemical was discovered.[5] It was then investigated for possible use in ulcer treatment, but was found unsuitable. At this time the United States military investigated it along with a wide range of possible nonlethal, psychoactive incapacitating agents including psychedelic drugs such as LSD and THC, dissociative drugs such as ketamine and phencyclidine, potent opioids such as fentanyl, as well as several glycolate anticholinergics.[6][7] > By 1959, the United States Army showed significant interest in deploying it as a chemical warfare agent.[5] It was originally designated "TK", but when it was standardized by the Army in 1961, it received the NATO code name "BZ".[5] The agent commonly became known as "Buzz" because of this abbreviation and the effects it had on the mental state of the human volunteers intoxicated with it in research studies at Edgewood Arsenal in Maryland.[5]

> As described in retired Army psychiatrist James Ketchum's autobiographical book Chemical Warfare: Secrets Almost Forgotten (2006), work proceeded in 1964 when a general envisioned a scheme to incapacitate an entire trawler with aerosolized BZ; this effort was dubbed Project DORK.[8] BZ was ultimately weaponized for delivery in the M44 generator cluster and the M43 cluster bomb, until all such stocks were destroyed in 1989 as part of a general downsizing of the US chemical warfare program.

> The U.S. Army tested BZ as well as other "psycho-chemical" agents on human subjects at Edgewood Arsenal in Maryland from 1955 to 1975, according to declassified documents.

alla_pugacheva said 8 days ago:

> desoxyn

Plain old "m3th" in folk parlance.

5trokerac3 said 8 days ago:

“I was told Epstein ‘belonged to intelligence’ and to leave it alone.” - Alexander Acosta

Who cares what the CIA did 60 years ago? Why isn't NPR reporting on what they may be doing now?

2mc84j395hn663h said 8 days ago:

Because finding out that the research on "mind control" continued would be a big scandal, and in the past journalists like Gary Webb and Michael Hastings, who uncovered scandals about the CIA, did not to end well. Probably the CIA didn't kill them, but I'm convinced it contributed to mess up their life enough to disrupt their work. Intelligence agencies around the world consider themselves, rightfully or not, guardians of national interests. If a journalist works to uncover stories that could damage them, she/he may be end up being considered a threat not only to the agency, but also to national interests and that would put she/he at risk. Since there are not enough structures in place to let unjust behaviors on the part of intelligence to be scrutinized, researching on such things is not something I would do without also expecting ill-fated consequences.

dasKrokodil said 8 days ago:

> Probably the CIA didn't kill them

Wasn't Gary Webb found with two bullets in his head? Sure, it's possible that he fired those himself. But it's still highly suspicious IMO.

2mc84j395hn663h said 8 days ago:

On wikipedia [1] it says "Multiple gunshot suicides are rare, but possible. In one study of 138 gunshot suicides, 5 (3.6%) involved two shots to the head, the first of which missed the brain."

I think that when Gary Webb commited suicide the CIA had already successfully disrupted his work and had no need to kill him. Example had already been given. However, was he still a threat and messing with his life wasn't an effective option, would they have killed him? They have done far worse things.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_gunshot_suicide

yters said 8 days ago:

How would he fire the second bullet?

rolph said 8 days ago:

it is also possible for a firearm to doublefire. its most common with un maintained semi auto pistols, but can happen easily enough with large calibre revolvers, due to the recoil.

Enginerrrd said 3 days ago:

It doesn't have to be unmaintained. A 1911 pistol can be made to bump fire pretty easily, especially if you have it in a weird position. While it really isn't impossible, if you take kind of a Bayesian view, the likelihood that it was mis-attributed murder probably goes up considerably once you restrict yourself to the subset of double gunshot suicides.

gregschlom said 8 days ago:

By not dying after the first. It happens.

Ill_ban_myself said 8 days ago:

There should be a gig-economy job board for all those fearless souls who volunteered for a one way trip to mars to put that reckless abandon in service to the work of doing thankless life threatening tasks like ghost writing articles for leakers and whistleblowers.

2_listerine_pls said 8 days ago:

> Probably the CIA didn't kill them

You are kidding right? Those two bullets in his head were a clear message.

rolph said 8 days ago:

The CIA only kills people by extension. It is a "contractor" that does the wet work. This is known as CS work [Clandestine Services]

...if you would like to explain yourself [D-voter] rather than hiding, im ready. Here is an opportunity to look around and see how it really works:

https://www.cia.gov/index.html

https://www.cia.gov/offices-of-cia/clandestine-service

feel free to offer your service to your country, if you think you qualify.

Ill_ban_myself said 6 days ago:

You know the story of the Zen master and the little boy?

rolph said 2 days ago:

its a horrible, and wonderful, story, but we will see, if we work willfully, wont we?

rtkwe said 8 days ago:

> Who cares what the CIA did 60 years ago? Why isn't NPR reporting on what they may be doing now?

Short answer probably is we don't know what they're doing now because it's still classified and no one inside has leaked much recently and no reporter has gotten a break. As for not reporting what /may/ be happening NPR is pretty good about not wildly speculating with no evidence.

turk73 said 8 days ago:

If they're behind all these mass shootings can we as a nation get together and put an end to these goons? Because that is what is being hinted at here--that there are drugs capable of mind controlling susceptible individuals. It is not science fiction is what we're hearing.

mrrrgn said 8 days ago:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird

"Operation Mockingbird is an alleged large-scale program of the United States Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) that began in the early 1950s and attempted to manipulate news media for propaganda purposes."

kylek said 8 days ago:

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false" - William Casey (CIA director 1981-1987)

Puts a lil spin on "fake news"

booboolayla said 8 days ago:

And we can witness the success of that program every time we watch mainstream media. They got really scared of Trump and decided they can't afford to hide the hidden hand any longer, so now we have more than obvious identical talking points being parroted by "journalists" and "experts".

nudq said 8 days ago:

Because in the context of Epstein, intelligence doesn't necessarily mean CIA. Seriously, we can't say "Mossad" on Hackernews without getting flagged, can we realistically expect NPR to go there?

cheese4242 said 8 days ago:

Worth noting that the father of Ghislaine Maxwell (who was Epstein's partner and "procurer") was a Mossad agent.

Hard to believe this all doesn't go far beyond a mere prostituion service for the rich and powerful.

razakel said 8 days ago:

Not to mention Robert Maxwell also died in mysterious circumstances.

turk73 said 7 days ago:

I'm glad at least some people care about this besides me because at the end of the day it is our own tax dollars that enslave us and that is perverse to say the least.

malvosenior said 8 days ago:

Whitney Webb did an amazing job researching Epstein and the CIA's use of sexual blackmail over the past 80 years in her four part series:

https://www.mintpressnews.com/shocking-origins-jeffrey-epste...

Definitely worth a read.

gotts said 8 days ago:

I believe that some people definitely care about what their secret services did 60 years ago.

I find these archives very useful in understanding how they operate and what methods that use. 60 years later but are they now that different than before? Some things don't change.

markus_zhang said 8 days ago:

I think it's more or less the "We don't benefit if we give that to the public but we have to spend a lot of time double checking so maybe we just don't do it" mindset.

cheese4242 said 8 days ago:

Indeed.

The current narrative being pushed is that Epstein was simply a pimp for the rich and powerful. It's clear there was much more going on though.

mr_overalls said 8 days ago:

I don't think that's clear at all. It certainly seems plausible that it was just an excuse to show him leniency because he had dirt on powerful people.

markus_zhang said 8 days ago:

Indeed, wondering what kind of things we can find in the secret archives...

zyxzevn said 8 days ago:

Anything that the CIA is doing now is protected with "national security". They can do it with anything they are related to.

Former CIA Officer Kevin Shipp [explains how this works and how it is completely misused](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQouKi7xDpM)

a11yguy said 8 days ago:

I think part of it, is that it's much easier and palatable to talk about what happened a long time ago.

What is happening now is a 'conspiracy theory' until at some point in the future it becomes historical fact.

ghobs91 said 8 days ago:

The Netflix show Stranger Things was loosely based on this. It was originally going to be called "Montauk" and take place on Long Island, as there were conspiracies of mind control, time travel, and other experiments going on at Montauk Air Force base.

said 8 days ago:
[deleted]
JetSpiegel said 8 days ago:

> Whitey Bulger was one of the prisoners who volunteered for what he was told was an experiment aimed at finding a cure for schizophrenia. As part of this experiment, he was given LSD every day for more than a year. He later realized that this had nothing to do with schizophrenia and he was a guinea pig in a government experiment aimed at seeing what people's long-term reactions to LSD was. Essentially, could we make a person lose his mind by feeding him LSD every day over such a long period?

Can a mind be destroyed but continue to have self-awareness to realize it was being treated as a guinea pig? Does the experiment proved it was all BS?

pseingatl said 8 days ago:

Former CIA mind control projects:

Ted Kaczyinski

Charles Manson

sandinmytea said 8 days ago:

It's grim, what will happen to the ones who thought they had this all locked-up.

The use of otherwise forbidden topics is especially poignant. The secrets of ancient techniques are inadmissible practically everywhere, thanks to the disturbing involvement of so many sworn oaths against their best interests.

As a recipient of their methodology, I can say there's sadly no good results for them in the near future, since what they've been doing produces counter- effects which will both expose, identify them and their various exchanges, records, and put them under the exact same circumstances.

anentropic said 8 days ago:

re same book and topics, some different details pulled out: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/sep/06/from-mind-co...

Mindwipe said 8 days ago:

There's a book called Brainwash: The Secret History of Mind Control by Dominic Streatfeild that goes into this topic well if people are interested.

(And by well I mean takes a fairly sceptical view that they ever really got anywhere, and generally makes the case that the CIA ended up so desperate to counter perceived Russian abilities that they really stopped asking if any of the people they were hiring in this area were either total con-men or just completely nuts.)

DoctorOetker said 8 days ago:

on the NPR site, it offers me text only version, but then the relevant article is not in the short displayed list of articles.

does anyone know the "sId" code?

an example URL of the text only site:

https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=759523615

sgift said 8 days ago:
DoctorOetker said 8 days ago:

may I enquire what steps you took to procure this link?

JetSpiegel said 8 days ago:

It's right after the date on the URL

DoctorOetker said 7 days ago:

thanks!

sgift said 8 days ago:

Probably GDPR related - I always get a decision page when I open NPR which has a link to the text version and one to the normal version (+the "and you accept all our tracking" disclaimer).

DoctorOetker said 7 days ago:

me too, but when I click for the text version 9 times out of 10 it doesn't bring me to the article but to a page with links to some of the recent articles that often does not include the originally referenced article

yters said 8 days ago:

Why would the government take any of these woo topics so seriously? Is there some kind of factual basis they are using, something concrete that would suggest there is merit? I'm doubtful it's based on complete conjecture and wishful thinking, but maybe you give people enough money and enough leeway and they'll just research oddball stuff.

sharot4 said 8 days ago:

By "woo" topic you mean "mind control"?

I like to do a thought experiment. If mind control is possible, will the CIA want to use it? If the CIA uses mind control, will they tell you about it? If they say that the program was a failure and was shut down, are they telling the truth?

I recommend taking a look into a thing called "trauma-based mind control". It may alter your way of thinking. Or it may not.

yters said 8 days ago:

Well, there is certainly is a kind of mind control used by many ideologies. So, ideology based mind control certainly happens. Also, hypnotic mind control is possible to some degree. I guess it depends on what is meant by mind control, because some forms are very common and not at all controversial.

razakel said 8 days ago:

It's simple: if the Soviets have it, we should too.

I'd point you in the direction of Jon Ronson's The Men Who Stare At Goats for more detail (the book is non-fiction, but the movie is fiction).

Yuval_Halevi said 8 days ago:

"During the early period of the Cold War, the CIA became convinced that communists had discovered a drug or technique that would allow them to control human minds. "

When I read it I actually tried to imagine how it was to live back then and to act based on rumors. It was a crazy time to be a secret agent that's for sure

caseysoftware said 8 days ago:

The US just finished a multi-year investigation into rumors fueled by a dossier created with rumors. People don't change, just the people involved.

bananocurrency said 8 days ago:

this is an interesting way of looking at things -- to compare the potential discovery of mind control to the investigation of a long time grifter. Your phrasing almost makes it seem as if there is just as much truth to each "rumour".

ableal said 8 days ago:
maskull said 8 days ago:

I imagine there is still a lot of action based on rumors. Absolute truth is hard to come by.

Synaesthesia said 8 days ago:

The CIA is so ideologically brainwashed themselves that they end up doing things like this, they often can't see the simple truth right in front of them.

AndyMcConachie said 8 days ago:

There's nothing in that article that we didn't already know. It seems like this is only getting attention now because someone wrote a book.

Is there some new revelation in this book that makes it worth reading?

en-us said 8 days ago:
AndyMcConachie said 8 days ago:

I'm not making fun of anyone. I'm interested in what's new in this book. MKULTRA is old news. Surely there must be something new in this book that previous books haven't covered. What is it?

en-us said 8 days ago:

The making fun part doesn't apply, but my point is that just because this isn't new to you doesn't mean it is something "everyone knows". So when you say "There's nothing in that article that we didn't already know" it is both incorrect and dismissive of those who haven't learned of this yet.

Synaesthesia said 8 days ago:

I don't think many people know the full extent of the MKULTRA programs, especially the attempts at mind control, brainwashing, dosing people with psychedelics unknowningly, extensive torture with drugs, experimentation on prisoners and stuff. Some of it approaches the Nazi experiments in just the sheer immorality of it all.

marnett said 8 days ago:

I agree no one knows "the full extent", and I do not think we ever will. A lot of information is out there though - available as far back as the late 80s. A lot of this came out when Harold Blauer's [0] sued the U.S. government [1] for testing drugs on him without anyone's consent when he was institutionalized for depression. The drug tests were covered up for 22 years...

I'm happy to see some headlines to hopefully inform some more folks, but you really have to go digging for this stuff intentionally to get to juicy details. If you are interested in doing so, I recommend picking up Weiner's "Legacy of Ashes: The History of the CIA".

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Blauer [1] https://apnews.com/2e5220ecb195844edacfbffdb0a37a5a

yters said 8 days ago:

Did they research news media and social media?

said 8 days ago:
[deleted]
lerie said 8 days ago:

people still think this is news?

mcurtis said 8 days ago:

I'm sure most people in power weren't taking this research seriously even 60 years ago, when it was running.

cf141q5325 said 8 days ago:

The criminals doing it took it serious, the atrocities were real and the list of victims whos lives they ruined is rather long. Once people hear MK ULTRA they think about staring at goats and LSD but the darker story behind it is the research on sensory deprivation, on torture to break involuntary subjects more reliably. From the school of Americas to Guantanamo to by now most regimes across the world, they all have to thank those "pioneers" of modern torture. The Canadian Dr Cameron who got the funding for his work on psychic driving through MKUltra isnt mentioned in the article but his work on the subject cant be described as anything but monstrous.

edit: "A Question of Torture" by Alfred W. McCoy is a good book on the subject.

Synaesthesia said 8 days ago:

That's correct. The CIA have actually learned the best form of torture is psychological torture and mastered that.

rmilejczz said 8 days ago:

Idk how you can be so sure of then when we were actively researching little green men from space as a threat to national security around the same time. The US govt has engaged in some pretty outlandish “research”